Teach me some history

[Gonzo]

I, as you all are aware by now, am completely in favor of waging an all-out war against the individuals that have been killing & maiming innocent men, women & children for decades-if not longer-and the rogue nations that support, or at least do nothing to hinder such barbarism.
As I read posts here & outside I see a number of "Middle Eastern" postsers that try to say this is not anything new & we should see it from the other side. Okay, fair enough-in 38+ years of life I've been to 3 continents, about 27 different countries & all but 3 states in the US. I've encountered, made friends &/or enemies with people of various nationalities, heritages & religions and assorted beliefs. Not one has taken the time to explain this questions answer to me so:

What do you, the American bashers of non-American backgrounds, want. What have we done to deserve such intolerable hatred from your people. If you can convince me that our society is such a demon, I may join your side or at least become less stressed over the acts of violence upon our people. I am not being facetious, I REALLY want to know.

 

[fury]

Yes, I too would REALLY like to know why Americans are such Satanic, uncaring bastards.

 

[unclehobart]

We are Israel's bankroll. We give them billions and military supplies. We share intelligence and secrets with them. We watch their backs and got Egypt to back out of the Jihad in 79. They consider every death dealt out by the Isreali army to be a 50/50 responsibility of the US government. In the greater world of Islam, only Turkey treats us neutraly... but thats because we helped keep the Soviets off their butts for 5 decades.

 

[Gonzo]

I've heard that rhetoric before-it's not worth killing 15000 innocents over that......next

 

[unclehobart]

Well, outside of that, there was a period where they were under the humilitaing rule of the white western powers of France and England for the better part of a century all the way up to the end of WW2. They seem to want to vent such bad blood against the US because we happen to be the current top dog in the world and stand in the general path of Islam.

 

[unclehobart]

BTW- The arabs really do hate the US because of our support of Israel. If it wern't for mass US aid during the 73 war, Israel might very well have gone 'poof'. They mumble about the US interference in 73 the same way we mumble about Pearl Harbor under our own breath.

 

[Gonzo]

closer-but that is over & history. (except the top dog part)We shouldn't be forced to pay for the evils of our forefathers & thier sins.

 

[unclehobart]

Good luck, pal. The thing they have with the Jews goes back thousands of years. What is a matter of 28 years in that time scale? Friends come and go... enemies are forever.

 

[Gonzo]

PRECISELY unc.
What is 28 years, or 53, or 225-we are not the enemy. They have been fighting over the same barren & lifeless dirt for 5000 years. And, prophetically, that piece of land (or one relatively nearby) was offered unto them by Jehovah. So, theoretically, the war never ended between Israel & Palestine(I'm a little lacking in my MidEast history & theology so please bear with me in details). So, I offer my question again-since the USA is not as old as the religious conflict in the land of milk & honey-why are we the enemy. Because we, again theoretically, stand for rights of ALL religious principles? Because we back a Jew? If, and only if, that's the reason then why should we feel guilty for killing some muslims-they don't seem to have the same guilt in reverse. The whole thing seems incredibly un-Godly and cruel.

 

[krusty]

Uncle Hobie is right Gonz, you just choose to call his facts rhetoric.

Remember the people in the middle east are at war everyday of their lives, it appears they wanted to show the insulated people of the US how terrible war really is.

In saying that, I think their methods were disgusting and what I saw happen in NY and Washington was, I hope, the most horrific thing I will ever see in my life.

 

[Gonzo]

I call it rhetorical because it seems too political a cause to send brave men & women to thier deaths over. And it's the standard bearer of responses. If that is the reason-well, read my last post-I'm done, unless I can see a better light in this madness.

 

[a13antichrist]

Uhhh I thjink in arguing against unc's points there you're missing the major point: Why the hell shouldn't the US support the Israelis?? They've got just as much right to live as the Palestinians... maybe more now, depending on who is actually responsible for the WTC. The US likes Israel & doen'st want to see it blown to pieces. I mean what, you're gonna hate the US because she's standing up for her buddies?? Get a freakin' life. Everyone's free to have their own opinions, and their own way of life. BUt if you choose to disagree with the big bad bossman, you can hardly blame him if he steps in when you go & pick a fight with someone who does share those values.

 

[Noite Escura]

Originally posted by Gonzo
Because we back a Jew? If, and only if, that's the reason then why should we feel guilty for killing some muslims-they don't seem to have the same guilt in reverse. The whole thing seems incredibly un-Godly and cruel.

That's the point, you never felt guilty, despite backing up all that happened there. I'm not american, right and I have nothing against US, but you have called everyone to try explain to you and I will share my opinion. At least in the case of palestinians I can say I understand their point of view. They think US aids to turn their lives a living hell by supporting Israel and it's partially true. That's why they got overjoyed with what happened. Despite all this I don't remember any other recent terrorist attack made by palestinians against US. They did it against Jews, but they consider it a war to get their country back. Much before thw WTC episode however I've seen so much people in these forums(not only Xi, note) saying: "Damn palestinians, Nuke them all" or something like. I think this kind of thinking (reread the quote above) "We support everything we want, 'cos we can, and if the rest of the world doesn't like, f**k them all" that make so much people grow hard feelings against americans.
You have asked my(and everyone's) opinion and gave it. If you disagree then ignore me, but no flaming me OK?
Again I'm defending only palestinian point of view, I can,t speak for afghans or other muslims.

 

[Noite Escura]

I have received this by e-mail. The author is unknown but I think it can help understand what's on their minds maybe not:

The Song of Palestinian Suicide Bomber

I hear the rumblings of the tanks
I hear the whirring of the gunships
I hear the whining of pitiless bullets
I hear the screams of terrified babies
I hear the wailing of mothers mourning their sons
I hear the anger of marchers in funerals
What am I gunless, penniless, to do?

I hear the moaning of unfed children
I hear the sighs of workless brothers
I hear the groans of wounded friends
I hear the screeching of bulldozers razing our farm
I hear them building a settlement over our farm
I see the helpless tears in my father's eyes
What am I gunless, penniless, to do?

I dare not live in this joyless planet
But I am not going away cheap
I want to take some of them with me
They say I shall go to heaven
I don't care about heaven
But I can't stand this hell
Gunless, penniless, what else can I do?

My mother's shrieks will pierce the moonless night
She will bang her head against the bullet-ridden wall
My sister will tear her braided hair
My father will silently pack
They will be coming to take their revenge
They will destroy the house
Gunless, penniless, what else can I do?

They have violated my soul
They have raped my future
They have drained my life of meaning
But my death will have a meaning
Because I am not leaving alone
I am taking some of them with me
Gunless, penniless, that's all I can do!

 

[HomeLAN]

All I will say, Noite, is this. If, in fact, this was a call for America to get out of the region, sacrifice Israel, and let the Palestinians take over that chunk of land, it will backfire mercilessly.

If (and I do say if) we end up tracking this back to a Palestinian terrorist group, and we identify members of the primary party responsible living in that region, my best guess is that the wrath of God almighty will fall on wherever those people are. I know my countymen, and we are no longer in any mood for long, protracted conversation. We will try to avoid collateral damage where possible, but our primary aim will be elimination of these insects, and we WILL accomplish that goal.

We will not be pushed out of the region, but we may well end up destroying it.

 

[Gonzo]

AC13-I'm a supporter of the Isreali right to a homeland. I feel for the Palistinians, but the 4 arab countries surrounding her have the land to give them someplace to call home without much affect on thier own soverignty.

Noite Escura-Yes I did ask for responses so I can't flame anyone, maybe the facts, not the individual. One of the reasons I asked for this feedback is the fact that we're (as a group on the net), saying kill the Palistininas, etc. I hold no blame for this act to them, just Afghanistan, for allowing Usama bin-Laden free reign. Apparently, I am almost alone in that thinling.

Overall, I want to know that there is some far more Noble & Honorable cause that makes a quarter of the worlds population see us, the USA, as demons & world killers. If it's just as UncleHobart has said-the same tired & lame political excuse-then **** 'em-bomb away.

 

[Noite Escura]

Originally posted by HomeLAN
All I will say, Noite, is this. If, in fact, this was a call for America to get out of the region, sacrifice Israel, and let the Palestinians take over that chunk of land, it will backfire mercilessly.

It wasn't. I simply tried to state their point of view I think I've puted it clear. I do not wish the Israel being 'sacrificed', hell they have all the right to live and have a state as anyone have. But I figured most people think the palestinians don't have that right.
That wasn't my point and I think you should reread what I have posted, I can't have expressed myself so bad. I had already typed a very large text about this but I've changed my mind. I'm not going to voice any other opinion in that matter, I never wanted to upset anyone.

EDIT: I didn't see your post before I completed mine Gonzo the palestinians don't want to live in another arab country, they want their own homeland back, or at least a piece of it. OK I finished.

 

[Gonzo]

Please, upset us. The more information & opinions that are available, the more there is to make sense of this madness.

 

[HomeLAN]

Sorry, Noite, I was unclear. I didn't mean that you were calling for the US to get out of the regoin. My point was that if that is what the terrorists want, they're going to get a rude surprise.

Seriously, this was not a shot at you. I hope I never feel a need to attack my friends just because someone else has pissed me off.

 

[Gonzo]

Capt. Tiberia is getting closer to what I was after-
http://forums.overclockers-network.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002037&p=1