Is R-12 legal to buy and sell?

[s4]

I have decided to look into this issue by searching Google for links. Krusty swore up and down he was right about the freon issue, so I decided to look it up and see what the facts are.

Please no yelling, cussing, name calling, or other abusive behavior in this thread. I just decided to look it up. I am not wanting to stir up any shit. I really had no interest in this issue, but it seemed to have gotten an awful lot of people at Xibase angry.

I am not doing this for Krusty. He told me recently I am a loser and never enjoyed my company, so why would I do anything for him?

Let's stick to the facts here.

I got the following 3 screen captures from: http://www.p2pays.org/ref/02/01044.pdf

 

[s4]

#2.

 

[s4]

#3.

 

[s4]

[quoteurl=http://www.cascadian.com/CRC/Subscribers/NANSSpring%2797NR.html#anchorNR97-12]
Psst, Hey Buddy, Wanna Buy Some Freon?
Demand for ozone-depleting chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) refrigerants remains strong in the United States, despite their manufacture here having been banned since January.

According to Duncan Brack of the Royal Institute for International Affairs in London, illegal trade "clearly threatens the integrity of the phase-out schedules and the rate of recovery of the ozone layer." CFCs may be "the second most lucrative commodity smuggled through Miami, exceeded in value only by cocaine."

Brack finds that Russia and the other former Soviet republics may underreport up to 60 million pounds of CFC production per year. The U.S. automotive air-conditioner market constitutes an estimated annual demand of 20 million pounds, much of which is imported illegally. [SOURCE: Perceptions, November '96, p.76]
[/quoteurl]


[quoteurl=http://www.autocool-refrigerants.com/]
If you want freon R-12 or R-134a or any other version of same we don't sell em, we won't ever sell em and will try hard to talk you out of buying them for reasons as much environmental and health related as they are economic. We could make a lot more money selling something we don't believe in but we aren't even going to try.
[/quoteurl]

[quoteurl=http://members.aol.com/ellsworthc/cfc/cfc.html]Out of desperation (and heat prostration), I went to [the local do-it-yourself auto parts retail outlet] and looked to see how much Freon was and what kind of leak-seal stuff there was. I felt kinda guilty about it - this is just the activity that the Feds are trying to prevent. There's no surer way to release CFCs into the atmosphere than adding some to a vehicle which is leaking. Well, it turns out the Feds have that covered. There was no R-12 Freon in the store. Well, that's not exactly true. There might've been some in the store, but ONLY by the twenty pound can, and ONLY to certified air conditioning service businesses, and for ONLY around $270 a can. There was plenty of R-134a.

...

So the Good News is that Uncle Sam has done something in Short Time and We and Our Children and Our Children's Children will benefit from it. The Bad News is that if you own a car that was produced after 1990 or one of the last holdouts to produce new CFC A/C systems, you're in an awkward (read: expensive) position. If you were the do-it-yourself sort that added you own Freon - that is apparently at an end (let me know if your state has taken the same actions). Now, you'll apparently have to get all your A/C work done at a Certified Air Conditioning Service Center and pay: whatever tariffs the Gummint has decided to put on the purchase of R-12; the penalties that the Certified Service Center has to pay for handling and disposingof R-12 (which that tariff on the purchasewas probably supposed to cover); overhead for the exotic-looking Freon Reclamation Equipment that every service station is now required to have; and God Knows whatever the Certified Service Center wants to surgically remove from your wallet for Parts and Labor because Ain't Nobody Else Gonna Be Allowed To Get Or Work On This Stuff. The point is, the only way that the Powers That Be have of insuring that the remaining (oh, coupla hundred million) R-12 cars don't just leak that stuff out into the atmosphere is to prevent bozos (like me) from "fixing" air conditioning systems themselves.

...

A friend told me last week that she remembered reading some time ago that R-12 would no longer be available in North Carolina after a certain date. She's not sure if the date has passed or not. The day after (8/3/94) she wrote me:
"in the morning edition of the [local newspaper] there was an advertisement for Freon R-12. It was an Auto-Zone ad and the price for a 12 oz. can is $6.95--they also advertised the bigger cans and I believe the next price up was $169 or $179 per big can. I was mighty surprised because as I told you in my note yesterday, my understanding was that no more Freon R-12 would be sold in NC to the average consumer. In closing, here's an article from a recent issue of AAA of the Carolinas monthly member publication:
[/quoteurl]

[quoteurl=http://procurement.lbl.gov/restrict.pdf]

PROCUREMENT CARD (Pcard) AND LOW VALUE PURCHASES RESTRICTED ITEMS

[/quoteurl]

 

[s4]

By the way, I have all the respect in the world for Kruz. I only went looking for anything that looked factual, and anyone is more than welcome to present their views on this. Please be civil.

I found this link which tells way more than I want to know: http://www.epa.gov/oar/oaq_caa.html

[quoteurl=http://www.epa.gov/oar/oaqps/peg_caa/pegcaa06.html#topic6]
CFCs from car air conditioners are the biggest single source of ozone-destroying chemicals. By the end of 1993, all car air conditioner systems must be serviced using equipment that recycles CFCs and prevents their release into the air. Larger auto service shops were required to start using this special equipment in January 1992. Only specially-trained and certified repair persons will be allowed to buy the small cans of CFCs used in servicing auto air conditioners.
[/quoteurl]

 

[Neo]

Yes it is legal to buy and sell as long as both parties are certified technicians.

 

[Gonzo]

What NEO said. That doesn't get into the "moral" issue of it, which is still debatable. There is no conclusive proof that we, humans, have done squat to cause/make larger/fix/ the "hole" in the ozone. I haven't checked teh accuracy of the statement, but one thing I've heard is the largest ozone releasing thing on earth is photosynthesis from the oceans?

I think we've had a hand in depletion of the ozone layer, but there is no proof.

 

[Gonzo]

try this http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/justfax.html or http://www.epa.gov/ozone/

EPA RULES & REGULATIONS
The overall point of the rules and regulations is to keep refrigerants from being released into the atmosphere.
The main points of the EPA rules and regulations:
The rules establishes standards and requirements for servicing of motor vehicle air conditioners.
Effective January 1, 1992 any paid mechanic servicing or repairing a motor vehicle air conditioner must properly use approved recycling equipment and be certified. There is a clause that exempts shops doing less than 100 A/C jobs per year from mandatory use of recovery equipment.
Tanks used to recovery refrigerant must be DOT approved.
Service hoses must have shutoff devices within 12 inches of the end connected to the vehicle. This is to minimize introduction of noncondensable gases into the recovery equipment and the release of the refrigerant when disconnecting.
Effective November 15, 1992, the sale of R12 in small cans is limited to persons with a certification. This prohibits the sale of R12 to the do-it-you-selfers. Also effective this date the EPA requires that R134a must be recovered and recycled.
The developement of rules and standards for recovery and recycle equipment is a on going process. See the latest information at the EPA web site:

Converting CFC-12 Equipment for Use with HFC-134a
EPA regulations prohibit technicians from changing fittings on the same unit back and forth so that the unit is used for CFC-12 in the morning, HFC-134a in the afternoon, then back to CFC-12 again, etc.
EPA regulations specify that when equipment is converted for use with a new refrigerant, the converted unit must be able to meet the applicable equipment standard set forth in the regulations. CFC-12 equipment may be permanently converted for use with HFC-134a under certain conditions. EPA intends to issue regulations placing certain restrictions on these retrofits in the future. Those restrictions may require that the manufacturer's service representative rather than the automotive service technician perform the retrofit, that a unit may only be retrofitted if retrofit procedures have been certified by an independent testing laboratory such as Underwriters Laboratories, and that an appropriate label is affixed to the unit. In addition, the retrofitted unit must meet the technical specifications of SAE standard J2210 and must have the capacity to purify used refrigerant to SAE standard J2099 for safe and direct return to the air conditioner following repairs.

Currently, however, in the absence of any EPA regulations, a service facility may perform such a retrofit, or may have the equipment manufacturer's service representative perform the retrofit, as long as the fittings are changed in accordance with EPA's Significant New Alternative Policy (SNAP) program regulations. The Agency cautions technicians, however, that even though recovering a given refrigerant using permanently converted equipment is legal, it may not be technically desirable. The equipment is designed to be compatible with specific refrigerants, and incompatible materials may cause short circuits, damage to seals, and compressor failure. Technicians should check with the recovery equipment manufacturer for recommendations about the recovery of refrigerants other than the refrigerant the equipment was originally intended to recover. Conversion of recovery equipment for use with other refrigerants may also invalidate any warranties offered by the equipment manufacturer.

 

[s4]

Ok we have settled the issue of whether it can be bought or sold.

As for the point that Gonz made, I am not interested in debating it. There must be evidence that suggests it does or we wouldn't have so many chemicals that are labled ozone-depleting by the EPA.

 

[s4]

Both Krusty and I agree that we wish the freon thread never was posted. It would have saved a lot of fighting.

In case any new people come along, I refer them to this thread: http://forums.jjr512.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30176&pagenumber=2

The one here at Xi that had the big argument was removed.

 

[Kruz]

As I’ve said elsewhere.. I’m not going to defend myself any further in this matter…. No laws were broken, No rules were ignored, and no personal attacks were made (By me)!

If it wasn’t my Freon thread that set him off , then it would have been some other thread or some other subject to piss him off… look back and remember who started this shit!
I’ve been on a lot of boards in the last few years, and have NEVER had a problem with anyone!

 

[Neo]

Kruz, not to worry. I think the ONLY person who had any problem with the thread is gone now. I personally didnt have a problem with it and neither did the host.

There never should have been any fighting. If someone had/has a problem it should be stated and done with.
I think its time for this to stop. There are much better things to talk about like babes, the masters, new movies, paint drying.....

 

[Kruz]

That was my last say in it.. now! on to newegg to check my order